SPEAKERS
Brett Scott
Brett Scott 00:01
Alright guys, welcome back today with me, Ted Bezemer, from Axio training. So this is something we just started using in our clinic and in our gym. I myself have been having some shoulder issues, which I don’t even know how they happen, I woke up one day was fine, and then went the overhead press, and I wasn’t fine. So I’ve seen Axia, the axial trainer online over the past couple of years. And you see it, you know, these MLB guys are using it. Now a lot of pitchers, guys in the NFL are starting to use and I popped up on my page a few weeks ago, and I was like, you know, we just need to, we need to buy one of these things, it’ll be a cool additional tool for rehab for training for injury prevention type stuff, especially where we’re seeing a lot of weight lifters, power lifters, stuff like that, and everyone could use a stronger rotator cuff. So we just tagged Ted here and Axio. And you know, we just started chatting and was like, Hey, let’s get on the podcast. So Ted, thanks for coming on today. I really appreciate it. So for those of you that don’t know what the Axio trainer is, it is this little circular, we have the green one. So it’s this little green circuit trainer, and it’s got a little metal ball in it, and you hold the handle in the middle. And you basically it looks very simple. And when you when you start to use it, you gotta get it. Gotta get the ball moving, but you’re the one creating the force. So it’s something that requires quite a great bit of shoulder stabilization, neuromuscular activation and coordination, and core control and everything else to keep yourself in one place and not let this thing ruin you. And for me right off the bat, you know, and and you see it and you get it a lot and the on the rehab side of things is you go do your bandit external rotations and turn rotations. Some, you know, the body blade is kind of the old school thing, we’re kind of shuffling that around back and forth kind of punching. For back side to side, what have you. And this is just a completely different tool. It’s, it’s really upped my rehab with my shoulder. And it’s only been a few weeks, and I went from staggering about maybe 50% of like shoulder range of motion that wasn’t painful to about like 95. Now, so just the last little bit, but I’ve also fallen off the wagon a little bit with some of my travel and stuff for work, too. But how did you get started with this? Ted? What What made you I want to know how you figured out how to make this thing and how many renditions it took. But what inspired this for you?
02:45
Well, you know, basically a pretty bad injury to be honest here. So I injured myself playing hockey, dislocated my shoulder tore my rotator cuff and labrum was fortunate I got it back in pretty quickly. So like no neurological damage, and I was in my facility the next day and I was like, alright, don’t dislocate. Again, let’s see if I can kind of build this thing up, I wanted to get back into some resistance training and obviously want to get strong and wanted to get back to throwing a football and baseball with my son and stuff like that. And of course, returned to hockey. And ironically, you mentioned like a blade, I had a body blade in my hand and I just kind of was using that. And I’ve been I’ve been a physical therapist and strength coach for as long as Bodyblade has been around. So I have it in my clinic. I use it every once a while, but I’d never, never thought I’d need it, I guess or that I’d be using it. But I had that and I kind of felt you know, this is just not enough resistance to really get strong and certainly not enough neuromuscular benefit to really stabilize the shoulder of the most mobile join the body basically right? For high level functional performance. And so I wanted something that was going to be kind of a lot more strenuous and much more challenging to control and manage. And that’s when I can the idea of using a rotational resistance. One because the shoulder is such a shallow joint, you know, it’s like a basketball on a pie pan. So if I could get 360 degrees of force around that joint, I can get every rotator cuff muscle to work, not just contracting, but really more importantly to ideal shoulder function. We need the muscles to kind of play more like an orchestra and they need to coordinate their attention to centralize that humeral head especially with high level you know movement and high velocity movements and things like that. So so quite a few renditions. I can think of how many times I’ve how many different things I used to try to make it and eventually I figured it out after quite a lot of failures and and it saved me from a major you know Bankart repair and and I’ve also separated my shoulder many times I tend to hit people with a shoulder when I play hockey so survive that and honestly like I’ve control football over 40 yards and no problem at all. I couldn’t, I’m not limited at all. And so it works great. And then I really wasn’t gonna make it and manufacture it. I just had prototypes. And I had people in my facility who’d be like, hey, Ted, can I use your thing didn’t have a name, they’d pick it up and they’d be spinning it and they’d be doing like two handed stuff and squatting and going overhead with it. And, and ironically, many people even just kind of fitness and through this, they weren’t even high level athletes. And they were like, This is awesome. I love it, you know, I can feel it my core, they’re getting their heart rate up. They’re like, it’s like an interval trainer. It’s like an odometer. It’s, it’s like, they’re almost like, kind of like, wow, you know, maybe, maybe there’s more to this than just helping shoulders. And so that’s really why I made it because I thought it would, it would be something would benefit a lot of people for a lot of different reasons. And ironically, since we made it and figured out the best way to do it, if anything, it’s actually evolved more as I get more coaches and more trainers and physical therapists and athletes using it, where there’s so many ways we’re using this now that I never even thought of like because I mean, I was thinking shoulder. And you know, and now it’s even being used in like neuro rehab and like with post concussion stuff and all sorts of like lower extremity stuff, core stuff, there’s so many ways to use it. Because now there’s so many great minds who are kind of playing with it. And have you tried it this way. And, and which is really kind of fun for me in my career to watch, to be a part in and collaborate with people and watch it kind of grow and kind of, you know, meeting people like yourself who like I never would have met if it wasn’t for something like this. So it’s, it’s, it’s really been kind of a fun and very energizing for me and a lot of ways. So who knows where it’ll go, I guess. But it’s going pretty great right now. Yeah.
Brett Scott 06:35
I’d love to see what the first rendition of it looked like. Is this something like trying to put together in your garage or something?
06:43
Yeah, actually, you’re exactly right. Exactly where. So it’s funny, I think I have a post, I did a post a while back on Instagram, showing like some of the renditions. And I think the first one was a, it was literally like a vacuum hose kind of thing that I kind of clamped together. And, and so And the funny thing is like you’d rip it, it didn’t work, I guess. But that didn’t work, right. Because there’s a urine engineering background, there’s a stress riser there in the system. So when you start to move a mass around this system, this thing is trying to pull it out of your hands. So it’s creating a force that’s trying to open the system will, when you have a clamp system and you have a math, it’s moving with velocity that’s trying to push it open. You can guess what happens when someone really does it hard enough. Funny thing, funny thing in my, in my, in my gym, I remember this, we I was doing like a training class for ski training. And we had someone using it for something. And we were chopping with it or something like that. And it was like, you know, one, two, and then also, the thing like, popped open and like three steel masses went like flying across the gym. Fortunately, didn’t really take any lights out or like take anybody out in the head. Otherwise, that would have been the end of axial before it started. But I was just like, I was like, Oh crap. Alright, we gotta, we gotta solve this. This is a mechanical way this is a, this is a flaw in the design. We’re gonna, we’re gonna make this thing and so but yeah, I made them I made them on a whole bunch of different things. And really the, the reason why it’s really so kind of potent, even though it looks kind of harmless is because this is this patented outer shell is pliable. So it actually is a mass rotates, it actually teardrops. And there’s some cool slow motion video we’ll see the mass is stretching the rubber component, and it decelerate. So to your point that you have to drive it you have to really you’ve got to kind of keep going to get it to keep going. It won’t just go on its own. In fact, it’ll stop on its own. So that deceleration that resistance that Angular resistance is really what makes a three pound Axio basically buckle, you know, 220 pound athletes, you know, it’s, it doesn’t take long. And then of course, if you increase the velocity of it that you’re just, you know, it’ll punch you back as hard as you punch it basically. So. So yeah, this is it’s a it’s, it’s fun to watch how people pick it up. And who figures it out how long it takes people to kind of get it dialed in, and then how they react when they feel it. You’ll see their eyes light up to like, oh, like, Oh, shit. Wow, that’s cool. Wow. That’s not what I like, you know, it’s kind of like, it catches them by surprise, you know, once they feel it. Yeah.
Brett Scott 09:15
Yeah, it’s definitely something that there is a slight learning curve to it. It’s like, like, like clunk, clunk. Got it. And then, but it’s amazing how much you know. And you can go do banded, external rotations, IES ys, T’s, you know, any type of stability stuff, and those, those aren’t bad exercises. But it’s amazing how much of your shoulder you feel in like 15 seconds. Once you figure out how to drive this thing around the right way. And it’s like, okay, my shoulder warmup is done. I don’t need to do anything else. Now. I’m ready to go. It’s pretty cool to see that. You know, you reinvented the wheel essentially. It’s just circle. What kinda looks like a tire tube around it and a ball inside? But yeah, I mean, you see these guys, it’s such it’s small, it’s light, it’s portable, like, you see these guys in the MLB us have now and it’s like, it’s an easy thing to just throw in your gym bag too, and take wherever you want. And so I might have to buy my own personal one because everyone likes it in the gym so much now. And interesting. You said, though, another cool point was you said before this was, you never intended it for it to be a rehab tool. And for me, when I first bought I was like, I was looking to use it for rehab. Sure, but as soon as I bought it and started using I was like, yeah, no, this isn’t going to be for everyone in rehab, especially right away. But so what was your your viewpoint on that? And where you’re trying to go with this thing?
10:55
Yeah, so. So you’re exactly right. I didn’t want to I did not want to make a rehab tool. I was injured. But I but I didn’t want to be rehabbing. I wanted to be training, I wanted to get back to high level function and things like that. And, and, you know, I’ve been a been a PT for a long time, and the string coach for a long time as well. And I kind of always felt like, you know, if you were doing this, we’re doing these little band exercises, or we’re doing a body blade or some like that, or we’re doing isometrics or now we’re in rehab. And then now Okay, now we’re at a rehab now you can do now we’re gonna strength train, and we’re gonna start to load. And so I always felt like there are these like separate rooms that we were kind of hitting, you know, and it never made sense to me that why I mean, I guess, look, we get injured or neuromuscular system starts to deteriorate fatigue certainly affects that. That’s something we want to improve. So rehab is highly concentrated on trying to improve our neuromuscular system, a lot of manual techniques aimed to help that but I kind of felt like, we were oversimplifying really what we needed for high level performance and really, injury prevention, to be honest with you. And that’s what I wanted to basically take a rehab concept, which is something that is a highly proprioceptive, something that requires high level motor control. But then also add in a high level of resistance to it. And like to your point, Axio is really Yes, it can be used as a rehab tool. And there’s lots of ways in there on their website, you can see ways you use it by body position and orientation to gravity and things like that can minimize some of the force this will give you. But the truth is, is I wanted the training tool, I wanted something that basically would, would challenge and improve and benefit the highest level athlete or anyone who was aspiring to to, you know, be better or perform better. And, and that’s kind of where it found itself. And then also just a general fitness component to it. This is something that, you know, even though we have a lot of high level athletes using it, it’s actually got a lot of benefit for just general fitness enthusiast for whether it be something I get people who use these things around their house, people leave it on their coffee table, and they when a commercial comes on, they spin it sitting down in their chair for 30 seconds, they put it down, I got people who have messaged me saying, oh, yeah, I’m worked from home, and I walk around, and I get on a conference call and I’m walking around spinning the axial, you know, and I switch arms. And it’s great. And I basically, you know, use it throughout the day. And I feel like you know, so like I said, I was intending to fix my shoulder. But then once I decided to manufacture it, and really make something that was solid and commercial grade and bulletproof. I wanted to I wanted the best athletes and the people who really want to train to validate it, you know, and identified as being what it is, which is a high level training tool. And, and I’ve been fortunate that a lot of athletes really recognize what you mentioned that they feel like, whoa, this thing is potent, like this is different than doing bands. This is I mean, I get people when I go to conferences and present it, who will walk up, grab it, and get over that hump where they start to feel it, as you mentioned, you know, and you’ll learn how to drive it, like jumping rope. They get a feel for it, and then they come back like 20 minutes later and they’re like, holy shit, did I still feel that in my shoulder? I can’t believe how much I mean. I’d be like 20 Like they’re shocked at how intense it is. And I think that just goes to show you that this thing activates and engages a lot of muscle in the body. Obviously the intrinsics the shoulder very well every motor muscle but it gets a lot of stuff going and I think it actually fires up the nervous system even systemically I think it has a very amplifying effect and kind of a excitatory neural excitatory benefit. And it just continues to evolve once again as we get more people using it so so yeah, it’s I like it to be identified as a training tool that can be used for warm up recovery and rehab. Not the other way around. Not a rehab tool, you know, and I think that that’s the challenge with something that looks kind of harmless. I probably should have made it like blood red or camo or something really mics on it. Something that like, you know, a caution stickers or something, because then maybe people would like, it will take a little more like, like, wait a second, you know, because if anything, they they’re surprised when they if they can’t do it right away, because it looks, it looks like it’s gonna be easy. And then when you can’t get it right away, you’re like, what was just some kind of trick to this? Either they chuck it, they chuck it and get rid of it, or they don’t put it down until they get it. It’s like one of the two, you know, yeah, hands on the psychology of the person.
Brett Scott 15:27
What’s really cool about it from this is from a nerdy, you know, PT standpoint, but you think of, you know, more higher level rehab, especially with throwers, overhead athletes, what have you, when you’re doing what we call a perturbation, so basically put your arm out and at a certain position, you’re going to hold there, and I’m going to try to slap your arm around and try not to move it, right. So that that’s kind of like for a lot of traditional clinics, that’s kind of like the end stage of rehab for some people, right. So that’s what we would call, you know, stabilization, you’re trying to keep your shoulder stable in one position. What’s really cool about the Axio, is you you can get a sense of that when you’re creating your own perturbation, then you’re holding in that place. But then you can start adding in all these different dynamics to it to where you start moving. You’re so you’re spinning the ball around, and you’re going through different ranges, like you could recreate throwing motions, overhead motions, put yourself in different planes. So I’ve gotten myself pretty fancy with it now. But I don’t really know of any other tool out there like the Axio that can give you all those different stimuluses at once.
16:40
Yeah, so I love that because his cuz you hit it right in the head, like, like doing all chain isometrics and rhythmic stabilization stuff. And I still do that in my clinic and I used to do patients, I actually use it, I do it early on in my rehab. Yeah, I do it very early. And I you know, I might lay him down supine, whatever. But so what what occurred to me is that like, I feel like when we do those that technique, I think we’re, we’re giving it more credit than what it really is, like the benefits it really provides. And here’s what I mean by that is that if I tell someone to hold their arm, still don’t let me move you. What they’re doing is their nervous system is now just bracing. So it’s just a static hole, there’s really not a lot of it’s just a brace and don’t let it move you don’t. Whereas X Axio you have to actually drive it you have to kind of it’s like painting with a brush, you have to really coordinate force to be able to keep it moving and, and work the gas and the brakes versus just bear down and you know, lock them up. And the truth is, like, very non locking up is not the same thing as movement. And, you know, it’d be like the argument of like, well, what’s a great stability exercise? Oh, well, a plank is a great stability exercise, I would say actually a plank is a good strength exercise, I don’t think there’s a lot of stability to a plank at all. I think that it’s basically static, you’re not moving, you’re not having to control force. And I think there’s different degrees of stability, right, that you get from, you know, I guess, holding a baseball, versus throwing a baseball or, or, you know, doing a leg extension versus doing a lateral rotational lunge or something like that, you know. So I think we’re actually it really shines is that component of basically not teaching people to brace but teaching people to coordinate their, their force and coordinate tension the best. And I think where I think I see it the most is, and I think every coach is probably seeing this with their athletes is that you might get really strong people who can move a lot of weight, they can deadlift a lot. And don’t get me wrong, I’m big into strength training. But but they don’t move well. They don’t coordinate their force, well, they don’t sense and anticipate and move well. And truly, truthfully, the best athletes, and the least injured athletes have that ability. They anticipate well, and the better our sensory motor system is not only the better, can we coordinate for us, but the better we actually anticipate what’s happening around us, the better. We sponge our environment. And and that’s what separates the best athletes from the strongest athletes to be to be honest, I think the, you know, strength is a great metric to have. But you know, when that buckets pretty full, you know, working on filling, the last little aid to that bucket isn’t gonna get you much return when it comes to dodging a tackle on the football field, throwing a football, throwing a baseball reacting, you know, in anything that requires a little bit more of a modulation of force. You know, I think the best athletes have the best, you know, brakes to be honest with you, they’re able to kind of decelerate accelerate the best. Yeah, that’s what this kind of does, you know, and then of course, 360 degrees is hard to reproduce when you’re pushing on someone’s arm. So as I’m rotating this around, that math is constantly moving around the system. So the force is always changing. It’s it’s variable. It’s not predictable, like manual techniques or a blade. It’s not at 90 degrees to the lever arm. It’s it’s It’s constantly changing. And I say when you get into the heavier ones, it literally is trying to pull your arm away from your body. It’s really quite dynamic. You know, I’ll send you a 720, for sure to play with.
Brett Scott 20:11
Yeah, it’s well, like scientifically to we know about motor control is. So there’s these different phases to motor control, for those of you that don’t know, but the first one would be just stabilization, rhythmic stabilization. So you’re, you’re staying in one place. But then we get into this dynamic stabilization later on. And that’s really kind of where we see, you know, rehab really does transfer into strength training. Because now we’re talking about, you know, this can lead you right into doing snatches, snatches jerks, any type of overhead movement throwing a baseball, that is that dynamic stabilization, where yeah, you need to know how to hit the brakes. And that’s in a lot of sports and good athletes. They know how to, especially weightlifting, and this is where I think this would be a really cool implementation for USA weightlifting. And the sport of weightlifting is it’s kind of like golf to in a sense of like, you have to be really relaxed in certain positions, or certain body parts during certain positions, and have certain things really stiff, and then a split second later, they need to be very relaxed, to get you into the next position, and then turn on what stiffness again, where the axial was, every time that ball moves around, you’re constantly reacting to that change in forces and where the ball is, and where your, where your extremity might be in time. So that’s really cool to see that. And so, do you guys have studies on this stuff at all of how it works?
21:44
Don’t we we well? Well, it’d be I mean, I know, I know what it does, scientifically, the physics of it. We haven’t done any, like EMG and stuff like that we almost did early on with University of Utah and stuff like that, and I almost revisited it again, but the truth is, those types of studies are really, you know, EMG is not a great way to measure the efficacy of something, and it really isn’t. And, and like I said, unless there’s like aberrant, you know, neural pathways or something like that, maybe it’s show it but I mean, I could basically have like, you know, you have the EMG chart, and I could put on the white lab coat point to like, look at the signals here and look what this does. But the truth is, I think it’s really a waste of money and resources. It doesn’t. I don’t think it really carries over to that. I think the one of the one of the guys who, who really helped me get into Major League Baseball is a guy named Steven Thomas, Dr. Steven Thomas, he’s a PhD. He’s an athletic trainer. He is a consultant for the Phillies. And I met with him this is three years ago, pretty much right when we launched. And he’s he’s brilliant guy, I mean, Shoulder Elbow research specialist, just does tons of studies with Mike Reinhold. I mean, he does, he’s, he’s really great. And he’s the head of, I think, a program at Jefferson University now, but it advisor and consultant of the Phillies, I sent him a few of these gotten the phone with him. And we kind of nerd it out kind of like our talk a little bit earlier with some of the components of this. And, and, and, and Steve was like, you know, like, the cool thing about this is that, as you increase the velocity, the perturbation becomes greater. And then if you have multiple masses, each math has its own force vector. And so it’s, you really have to now it’s like juggling, you got to coordinate this. And so I think the challenge behind like, determining efficacy of some of these things, is is the metric. What’s the metric for measuring the neuromuscular system? I would say, like, it’s easy to we got lots of strength metrics, strength metrics are easy, like, you know, what do you bench What do you squat? What do you deadlift? What do you clean? You know, like, we can look at these things that we can now start looking at, at force plates and things like that, which is great. And do some 3d stuff. But, you know, the metric for Neuro, the neuromuscular system is kind of an interesting one, like, what is it that we’re looking for, I would say, this is somewhat of a metric. If I have an athlete, you know, who tests strong and they’re, you know, the strength metrics are good. And they’re like, you know, clunking this thing around, or they’re falling over on one leg when they’re spinning versus the other leg. They’re not, there’s a disconnect in the system. There’s a there’s a wiring issue there that we can make better. And here’s, here’s a perfect example of this. And I wish I would have gotten video on this. I think I told you I did talk a while ago at a National Academy of Sports Medicine conference for trainers, and I was up on stage and I was showing trainers how to use this and it was up by about 25 in the room and they all have one of these in their bathroom just like a two handed move like this you know just standing there and and some guys are getting in some art and this one guy is all ripped. He’s jacked. I mean this guy I don’t know what what his drink metrics were but he is ripped full tank top just cut, you know, chisel. He’s ripping it with both hands. And I’m like, Alright, hey, trice going into a split stance now so To your point, changing bases support effects, motor control and stability. I put them in a split squat. He’s ripping it there. I’m like, Alright, nice. Let’s have you just do a stepping lunge and come out of it while you rotate the axe. Yeah, I don’t know if you’ve tried that or not. But spending the axial and lunging seems pretty harmless. It’s only three pounds right? What’s the worst thing that can happen is he’s gonna lose control the axial right? Well, this guy goes and spins it drops into the lunch and literally falls on the ground. He literally buckles goes into valgus, collapses axial hits the floor. And then he’s like, kind of pulled himself up. And by that time, he probably looks up and sees me pointing at him on stage because I’m like, Holy shit, that guy just totally control all deleted, like right in front of me. He just flipped, went down. And he got up. And he’s like, rubbing the floor with his foot because he was he thought he stepped on like an outlet, like a plug or something or a soft spot in the carpet. And there was nothing there. He literally just his nervous system. I mean, something happened, where he’s rotating, he went just to push out of a lunge. And he didn’t, he went down. And to me, I think that’s, I just remember seeing and thinking to myself, there’s something else that we’re maybe missing here. And we talk about like our ACL rehabs and, and we’re trying to, we need to develop automaticity we need to train the nervous system to coordinate tension in one area and move in another. And and we need to do it just like you talked about when you’re snatching heavy weight, your brains not going through the process mechanically of how you’re going to do it. It’s actually it’s it’s automatic. It’s peripheral alized. And that’s one of the sneaky things that this does. Is it peripheral eyes is your nervous system. And we get first people are like, wait a second, where’s the ball? My brains highly involved? But the truth is, is that once you feel it and you drive it, it becomes kind of this. It’s like playing an instrument. It’s not something that you’re okay, what’s How do I do this? You develop that automaticity. And I think that’s, I think that’s the kind of the special sauce when it comes to athlete performance. The best athletes when they’re performing their best, there, they all have the same thing going through their mind, nothing. You know, they just remember being easy and having fun. And and I think that’s kind of one of the surprising things that this does that I never, of course intended to make it for that reason. But I think that’s really one of the benefits of what it does for athletes, and really everybody for that matter.
Brett Scott 27:21
That’s really cool. And so we spoke on a little bit, but so what it is, how did you get into this whole centripetal force rotational piece of like, how did you come across that thought, like, what was it about biomechanics and the neuromuscular system that made you think, Man, I need a ball inside a rubber to
27:47
start over?
Brett Scott 27:49
So what happened there? What What was that thought process? And why? Yeah, why does that work so well, for the development of the nervous system for athleticism?
28:01
Yeah, well, so I think it was more about me just figuring out something I didn’t like, which was the fact that the tools we’ve been using already that they, in the back of my mind, just kind of like, you know, this really made a ton of sense to me why we continue to do this, this theme, these same linear one direction forces, you know, for the shoulder in particular. And so that was really probably my first thing was like, you know, this would be much harder if I could get something that actually was more resistance, first of all, and then I was like, Well, why are we also training the shoulder joint, you know, such a shallow joint with a One Direction force? It’d be better if I could train it in 360 degrees. That’d be that’d be fun. And then, so I’ve played around with some different things. And rubber was not the first thing I kind of use. I think I used some hosing stuff I said, but what I kind of learned is that, yeah, when you rotate something, it’s significantly more potent. And there’s some science behind that. So when you if you want to double the speed of a mass and a rotational system, you’re mastering your half pound way, if I want to double the speed of that, I need to apply over four times the force. And that’s just with a frictionless system. So when you take an axial which is now pliable, that decelerates it adds an internal rotational resistance. It’s not like a cat toy where you get the thing going, it was, it won’t buzz on you, it actually decelerates. Now it’s more like six times the force to get that thing to double and speed now. So they say it makes something very potent and very strenuous, surprisingly strenuous. And so plus, once again, 360 degrees of force versus maybe just relying on gravity, or the force of a band in one plane. It doesn’t matter if I do diagonal patterns, PNF all that kind of stuff that still is really one direction. It’s the band direction is gravity actually was affected by both it’s affected by rotational resistance depending on where the mass is and the velocity of the mass, and it’s affected by gravity. So if I want to make it more strenuous, well, I’ll hold it out against gravity. I want to make it easy. Here, I could bend my arm, change the lever or make it shorter, it’s easier that way. If I change the orientation of it, though, then I’m actually affecting the effect of the mast against gravity. So in this orientation, it doesn’t, it’s not as strenuous, as if I held it like this or like this. So there’s all these little permutations in the, in the, you know, the person of the therapist, the strength coach, the engineer, who can piece together Hey, wait a second, if I use it in this orientation, now it changes the force and, and it changes how it affects maybe my legs or my shoulder or my core. And so it’s, it’s great just to basically use with one arm, but the truth is, there are, there’s so many, so many other ways you can integrate this and training, it’s really endless. And it just comes down to really who the chef is, as far as you know, how you use it.
Brett Scott 30:51
Yeah, it’s really cool. I’m excited, I got to go back and look at some of the other exercises and options, I have to do it even like you said, like, you know, treating ankle sprains and stuff with this is something because you know, far too many people, we still see standing on an x pad or a Bosu ball, you know, doing something, it’s like, look, you know, unless you’re training to outrun an earthquake, this isn’t real life application, there’s no skill, transition of skill to real life, and then modern patterns. But having an ankle on solid ground, and then having your upper body move around it. That’s a whole different reverse pattern of much more applicable to real life. So you know, you could throw all the someone to but again, that just continuous time under tension, definitely probably has some major effects to improving ligament, tendon quality and everything else too. So
31:48
I think yeah, that’d be the interesting research actually, probably would be to look at maybe tendons and how it affects you know, tendon ligament stability, things like that. I might be kinda interesting.
Brett Scott 31:57
Yeah, even looking at and I don’t know how well you could test it, right, because it’s like, there’s the warm up effect and everything too. But we see so many like gymnasts, everything else, super mobile people that have a lot of, you know, passive range of motion, but actively have no idea to tap into, sometimes a fair amount of that. And then to see what happens if you gave them one of these things, have them start, you know, messing around, and kind of their strike zone of their neutral range to getting them towards those end ranges. And then see what a post test looks like. That would even be interesting. So okay, now we have active motor control, and these these renders, that would even be probably pretty simple study to look at.
32:40
I like that. I think that’s actually I think it’s really insightful. I like that because like, with our baseball players, for example, everyone’s trying to create more lag, you know, weighted balls are trying to create more, more in range, er, throw harder and things like that. And so. So one of the ways that we use the Axio is, is actually putting them in full and range er, and along, I’ll do a long axis move, I don’t, most people think it needs to look like a throwing motion need to be at 9090 for some reason, but the truth is, that’s not really the best way to train the shoulder, I put them out here and er, and supination, I can rotate an axial here. And I can get them to, to own so the expression you nailed it is uh, you basically are getting someone to own the range, you’re, you’re in printing their range. And I think the way you imprint it, you know, I think like the FRC stuff has helped with this a lot. You know, you’re owning, you’re actively holding in the end range, which is great. But it’s, it’s better to dynamically load in the end range, it’s better to develop the motor control and coordination at the end range, not just, you know, I think I saw a video once of like one guy just shooting someone against a wall and he hasn’t met basically, they’re at 9090. And they lift their form off the wall, and they hold there. And he’s talking about dynamic stability and range dynamic stability. And I’m like, I’m sorry, but that’s just not dynamic. You’re just asking him to hold that’s just active range of motion is what that is, and even gravity minimize for that matter. I mean, even if you lay on your stomach and do it, okay, great. There’s active range of motion against the force of gravity holding there, I like it, I think it’s, I think it makes people it’s a good place to go. But now when you put an X you in someone’s hand, and you wrote it there, now what you’re doing is you’re training that end range with a very, you know, nutritious, nervous system activation. And I think, like I said, it’s just the degrees of stability, you know, you got your plank, you got your active isometric holds and end range, and then you’ve got an axial, you know, which is like pouring gas on it. And so I think that’s really where I’d like to see if I see someone who can handle end range, er, the thrower, and they’re rotating axial, they’re fully supinating and they’re hanging out back there and they can maintain that not only the imprinting to the nervous system that they own that position. Um, you’re also not going to have any adverse effects on the anterior capsule, you’re not going to stretch the anterior capsule, which you might get with some weighted ball throwing and things like that. So it’s very safe in the shoulder. It’s I think it actually does even more than that, I think it actually will give them that chance to have more dynamic control in that range. Which I think is really what we want to have. It’s not just holding a position, it’s being able to move in and out of it. Be able to, you know, write calligraphy in that position versus writing block letters, you know, that kind of analogy.
Brett Scott 35:29
Doing that with a supinated. externally rotated grip. Sounds miserable. I have yet to try that. Although I did start doing it. You’ll get on my belly and prone and that is Oh, gnarly. Yeah.
35:43
non dominant arm to go non dominant.
Brett Scott 35:45
I did I did that. It’s, it doesn’t look as good as the right side. But it’s it’s there. It can move. But yeah, it’s been trainable. Yeah. And so as far as injuries go, like, there’s probably plenty of guys that are back to training, have some of these nagging things that you know, have stuck around for a long time? What types of shoulder injuries? Do you see this thing helping with, besides, you know, maybe all of them? Because the goal is what you’re trying to get back to?
36:15
Yeah, you know, it’s funny, because I guide people, I said, I didn’t want to make a rehab tool. And it’s like, it’s a it’s not a rehab tool. But I have physical therapists that reach me who are like interested in it. So I eventually finally put together videos and exercises and I have a rehab page on there and ways that progressions and regressions of how you might use it with shoulders, ankles, knees, core, you know, back stuff, just to show some people some examples of how they can integrate it with quite often things that they might already be doing to be honest here. And then, so the thought was, well, you need to have a, you need to have a rotator cuff protocol, you know, and I’m like, Okay, well, it mean, you treat and I’ve treated, I don’t know how many rotator cuff patients I’ve treated. But here’s my tree that a lot of rotator cuffs. And the first thing you learned about treating the rotator cuffs is they’re never the same. And it’s always kind of a little bit different. Everyone’s a little different what someone tolerates and, and so I always like felt like, you know, the last thing I would want to do is give somebody a cookie cutter program, and say, this is the way you do it. And because I think it’s something that the therapist is really the one who has to determine that that’s where the expertise comes in, versus just giving a program and they’ll be fine on their own. I mean, I think I think I certainly wouldn’t want to be responsible for messing someone up, because I gave them you know, bad advice without ever seeing them, you know, but, um, but I think to your point, it actually, I don’t know, if I can think of a shoulder injury that actually doesn’t work well with, it just depends on where they are in their recovery. So if you’re looking at like a rotator cuff patient, I won’t bust an axial out until they’re at least six weeks post op, I don’t want to do anything that’s going to stretch that repair, I won’t pendulum with it with a weight, I don’t do any of that. Because all it takes is just someone to basically haven’t let go a little bit and then you got a super weak shoulder for them to deal with. And, and so I first I kind of feel like there’s nothing, there’s more things you can do wrong in the first six weeks and then help them be further along in the first six weeks, you know, so but I do use it after that. And I’ll basically use the change in like the orientation of gravity. So for example, I shouldn’t even a rotator cuff I had a guy who had a glenoid cartilage Fisher young baseball pitcher or catcher landed on his shoulder Skeen messed up his shoulder, young kid by the 1718 years old. And after six weeks, he’s doing pendulums with an axial so he’s bent over, and he’s spinning the axial though. So it’s not just, I mean, that lights up your cough. With a low grade traction, it’s very safe, little tricky to get going, because you got to feel where that mass is. And so sometimes it takes a little bit of a push start, but really actually great for pain, great for range of motion. They said patients tolerated great, and it wakes up all the muscles in the rotator cuff at the same time. So I like that then I might put them in supine, on their back. So now I’m having gravity still. Now gravity is loading down my humerus, it’s not me holding the weight up, that’s a different move there. And I can work on more, more protraction stuff. But still, once again, don’t get the weight of gravity, which might make someone start to do all that scapular elevation stuff I don’t want to see. And then I would progress into like two handed stuff, one handed stuff and change lever arm and things like that. And eventually, they’ll rotate it, you know? But that would just be like a progression, just picture you through and that’s all on the website. You know, I’m how like, you might just change the orientation of the Axio to to progress resistance or, or you know, neuromuscular challenge. You know, interestingly in year two of the study, and I really should have never actually documented this but I probably should have. I had a guy who had a rotator cuff tear he’s an older guy, and he’d pick up a he fetus picked up the Axio or three pound weight, he get pain, raising his arm get that kind of painful arc you know, not too much of a shoulder shrug but he had a he had a partial Like the service supers bananas, you get pain, he takes an axial spins it raised his arm all the way up and lowers it down, and has no pain at all. Like, to me, like, that’s, there’s your step really is the proof that right, that’s all I would need as a therapist or someone to understand, like, clearly, if I if I can recruit more of the cuff, you know, then I can kind of compensate for that tear and maybe some of the weaknesses that Supraspinous and I get that humeral head did not write up and, you know, and, and I, like I said, it works, it works. So now it might not work for everybody, but, but I watched it and, and that kind of tells you right there that, you know, maybe it’s not, you know, just the linear band stuff and weights that we, you know, should only be doing, you know,
Brett Scott 40:47
I gotta say I commend you for your altruistic and just being a good person about this. But you’re missing out on a ton of money because I just had someone the other day come into my clinic. That’s, he’s, he’s a training client. And he’s doing some PT with us right now. But um, he got the crossover symmetry bands. And I’ve, I’ve seen them through CrossFit and stuff. And I was like, it’s just one set that there’s two bands, they’re rubber bands with the little like coil thing so that if they snap, you don’t fall over. Or they go and fly off and hurt someone. But yeah, what you pay for those? He’s like, Oh, they’re like, $111 or something. I said, What’s the same thing over here? They pay like $10, where he’s like, Well, I bought it for the program, or they bought it for the poster with the 12 exercises on it. So
41:37
yeah. Reverse slide or reverse, like,
Brett Scott 41:41
yeah, reverse fly up, reverse fly down, whatever. Whatever, man, it’s your money.
41:48
Yeah, no, I get you. I mean, I’ve, you know,
Brett Scott 41:52
that’s the right thing to do. Yeah.
41:55
No, you know, I mean, so. So like, it’s I do take, I do take my profession seriously. And, and to the point where, like, you know, I get people who asked me to, like, you know, you know, in like MLM companies that sell their nutritional products, and all sorts of stuff. And, and to me, like, I think, you know, the responsibility of a licensed healthcare provider is is, is to always try to provide the best education, the best resources to your clients, your patients. And the truth is, like, everything on the website is is free, it comes with the product. So like, you get the x you you get the entire database that we continue to add to it. I don’t, you know, I like links, I think it’s even then people still don’t say look for it. By the way, I should point out, like, we got hundreds of exercises on the website and the rehab page, and all sorts of stuff. But then, all of a sudden, I let someone know, we got it in there. Like, are you kidding me? I didn’t know that was there. Like, well, you scan the card when you got the
Brett Scott 42:58
that’s very respectable, though, that you, like you say it’s an understanding of the therapist of, you know, there’s a certain place and time to start using it, how to use it, when to use it. And that’s not black and white. And there’s too many fitness companies out there that are Yeah, just this is how everyone should do it. And it’s like, does this work? I know and that’s, that’s possible.
43:20
No one’s happy. Yeah, no, it doesn’t work for anybody.
Brett Scott 43:22
Yeah. So it’s like, okay, so crossover symmetry is going to fix everyone with this one same protocol that everyone’s going to do for different, you know, 100 different shoulder injuries? I don’t, you know, it could probably help but might not be the best. So I commend you on that. Thanks. Yeah. And so where is this thing going with the NFL and the MLB? Like, what? What things? Are they seeing its utility in? And are they just doing prevention with it? Are they doing it? What are they doing with it? And what are they seeing from the benefits of it?
43:58
Well, so So MLB is, is by far our biggest, I guess, professional sports client. So we probably have every I think we have every MLB organization now uses these in some capacity. Many travel with them, obviously, because they’re super small, they can throw 12 in a bag. It’s definitely identified in baseball first and foremost, I think as a warmup tool by athletes because baseball players are always there naturally been kind of fed the idea of arm care and warming up and stuff like that. And so it’s a pretty quick potent way to to warm up the rotator cuff, the shoulder blade muscles, the core, kind of amped the nervous system a little bit excite the nervous system as well. So it’s, it’s it’s definitely used for that. But I say training is the other piece. So it was kind of cool. I presented at MLB with MLB winter meetings in San Diego back in just a couple months ago in December to lb every team’s athletic trainer. And it was really kind of fun because now that actually has been out for a few years. I mean COVID kind of messed things up a little bit but I’ve had teams like the Rockies for example have about 25 of these The Diamondbacks have a bunch of these the Padres Padres order a bunch before they go on road trips to you know, get more for their trips and stuff. So it’s kind of cool to see now and meet with the trainers who have been using them. And and it’s funny because now like the padres, I was just super psyched about this because the puppeteers are actually hooking up bands to it and like so on our website, there’s a whole bunch of ways you can help bands up to create different force vectors protraction upward scapular rotation, horizontal abduction, like I mean, you can keep kind of building these levels to it and, and the padres, I’m like, You guys are hooking bands up to this, right. And one of them. He’s a PT and strength coach. He’s like, he’s like, Oh, yeah. And I’m like, Ah, it’s awesome. So, so you say from a training standpoint, like I love hearing that kind of stuff, where people are, oh, yeah, we are strength coaches, we’re deadlifting. And then we’re dropping in, we’re doing side plank arm bars for 30 seconds with the axial each side, then we go back to the bar and deadlift, and we, we work it into our programming that way. And I’m like, Ah, that is what I love. Because that’s basically a coach running with it and building it and working it into their programming versus, oh, I’m just gonna do this for 30 seconds before I go live. You know, and I think that’s, I said, That’s awesome. And so recently, we just got in with, with some quarterback coaches in Southern California, that, you know, I kind of they were interested in and I was like, hey, I’ll send you a couple samples, let me know what you think I think this is a good tool for your quarterbacks to be using. And, and they love it. They love it, they love it, because it’s challenging, to be honest with they use blade sometimes. And they both, you know, they all kind of felt the same way. This is just not strenuous enough, it’s not dynamic enough, quarterbacks need to be able to move their body quickly, you need to react, it’s not a constant repeatable throw, maybe like a baseball player, a pitcher’s mound that and and so the feedbacks been huge, and then we just, I’ll be next week, I’ll be out at presenting at the NFL Combine to like 120 NFL strength coaches. And to me those are that’s like, I look forward to events like that, because strength coaches, you know, everyone’s got their perspective on what’s good, and what they should be doing. And I think a tool like this, that looks kind of harmless to be able to, to get them to really feel what it does and appreciate, you know, how dynamic it is and how they could integrate it. And Coach it, to me is really a really fun, exciting conversation to have. And so, you know, I’m pretty confident that they’ll figure it out. And they’ll, they’ll recognize the value and how they can use it in their training programs, you know, so, and like volleyball and other I mean, there’s other other sports overhead athletes, you know, we’ve done a lot of volleyball stuff, we have some, some ATP tour guys in tennis, using it tactical shooting archery. You know, it really, it has a lot of different applications and benefits depending on really what the sport is. But obviously, overhead athletes are is kind of the first no brainer, you know,
Brett Scott 48:05
I would I would say it must be probably very beneficial for quarterbacks ease, especially looking at that, like the rate of incidence of like an anterior dislocation being sacked with their arm up in the, at the start of UCL. UCL is to Yeah, yeah. So it’d be cool to see what this thing does for them and a few years of using it and what applications we can find and, you know, if if we could certainly find that there’s some type of decreased incidence of dislocations and you know, quarterbacks and things would be interested, but I don’t see theoretically why we wanted to see that. So that’s cool, man.
48:47
I think you know, I think that I think like when it comes to certain things, I mean, we’ve got some we got a couple of NHL teams that use them. They integrate them into their leg lower bike, the Boston Bruins have them and they do like rear foot elec Bulgarians off a bench, and they dropped down and they do low. I mean, because the hockey players need to be low. They’re doing two handed, low split squat 92nd rotations, spinning it. So basically two handed rotating while you’re in that, that low Bulgarian for 90 seconds. And so what happens is when you’re rotating that that force is going into the ground, and then you get a ground reaction force that goes back to the Axio and back into the ground. There’s this kind of volley. And it’s I’ll just say it’s not pleasant.
Brett Scott 49:31
I’m gonna try that because I’m a hockey I’m a hockey player and a Boston Bruins fan so I gotta go do what they’re doing just as my Yeah, my heroes my childhood heroes over there.
49:44
So I’m a Sabres fan. I grew up I grew up in Buffalo, New York. So you know we can we can’t really can’t really get along, but it’s alright. Bruiser. Bruiser. Pretty incredible this year.
Brett Scott 49:53
Yeah, we’re way better than everyone else.
49:57
I played I played on a rec team with a bunch of guys from new New Hampshire in Boston and so okay. Yeah. And I used to live in Boston. So, ya know, they’re, they’re pretty filthy good, you know? Yeah. So yeah, I think, you know, they, I think that’s a cool way to use it. And I think, from like these shoulder and these contact injuries, I think for the hockey stuff, you know, I think, like, I mean, a lot of these injuries happen just from blunt trauma, though. So I think, you know, even though I think an axial is a phenomenal training tool as a component to a training program, I wouldn’t just use axial, of course, I would be doing things to hypertrophy the shoulder and add as much mass as I can in the pronator. And, and I think sometimes, you know, you can, you know, having more mass can give you more mechanical stability when it comes to those types of blunt traumas, you know, I’d say this is especially more of a dynamic stability tool, whereas strength training in general would be more of a mechanical stability tool.
Brett Scott 50:51
Yeah, both both together are definitely needed to mitigate risk of injury on the field. But yeah, man, that’s awesome. I mean, there’s so much to this. And again, such a simple tool that you invented over here. It’s just and talking, talking through it more now to him even like, yeah, there’s a lot of, you know, a lot of science actually, in theory, we know about movement behind this. So it’s really cool to see all the different things you can do with the simple little thing. And I would say too, for people like that workout now that you’re telling me all these things, like, if you are traveling on the road, and you need a quick workout, you bring a three pound 12 inch ring with you throw it in your bag, you can do a pretty gnarly, you know, hotel. Oh, yeah, hotel workout in about 15 minutes, probably with this thing.
51:42
If that. Yeah, yes, yeah, it’s 30. So we do like, I typically do, like 32nd intervals. So I’ll base it like parameters off of 32nd intervals, I might be like, when a client and maybe Okay, look, I want you to hold a split squat, I want you to do one arm, whatever. And I’ll say 30 seconds, if you lose control, just get it going. Again, the clocks still going. And the goal is, Can you complete 30 seconds without losing control. Now you can also rep it so you could be like, I’m gonna do move it between, like, you know, flexion and abduction, or something like that. And I’m gonna do eight reps or other training stuff that I really like when we’re talking about the weight training stuff is super savvy. So I might do like overhead presses then and then then follow up with an axial interval. Because as we fatigue or neuromuscular system deteriorates, so, you know, we want to basically continue to challenge that with our with our endurance, so. So I think that’s a pretty sneaky way to do it. And then of course, integrating it with other compound lifts. And virtually any core exercise, I mean, bird dog side plank, spare crawl V seat positions, you know, AB hollows? I mean, it’s I do tons of thoracic rotation stuff with it. It’s, it’s, it just depends on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go with it, I guess.
Brett Scott 52:58
Yeah, I do have a question there. So just my perspective on training and what we’re trying to get. So you know, we don’t. And it depends on what we’re trying to do, what the training effect or stimulus we’re going for. But, you know, for my guys that are weight lifters, we’re trying to the goal of the sport is lift as much weight overhead as possible. Move it as little as possible, and you get under it. So and range mobility, stability, but we need a shitload of shoulder stability, strength. But we also do a lot of work capacity to build on those structures, so they don’t break down. But you’re saying you would like superset the Axio? With, say, overhead pressing or something like that?
53:40
Yeah, I might. I mean, I wouldn’t if you’re trying to basically continue to progress to a max. But once you’re done, I would drop set it and use it. So I mean, a lot of certainly like any bottoms up, like, like, I’m not, I’m not talking about doing like some of the heavy lifts that you might be talking about. But if I were doing like, but you certainly could, I guess. But if I’m doing like a bottoms up kettlebell or something like that, or landmine presses or something like that, I’ll basically drop it in and almost kind of wring it out, so to speak. Because if you is this, the argument would be and you’d see this pretty, pretty obvious whether you know, no matter how, guess how you’re doing it, but if someone is fatigued, you’re gonna see them clunk, this thing around a shit ton more than if they’re not. And so, now if I want to really improve the nervous system, you know, I want to improve my free throw shooting, you know, or picking corners, and I’m shooting the puck or smite that, well, I’m better off training that system when I’m fresh, right? Not exhausting myself. Don’t go in the gym and do a shit ton of curls and then start shooting free throws because you’re probably going to mess with your form your technique, you won’t actually get that neuromuscular pathway down. So an early stage I think that’s important to probably not do but I think once you get to a certain point, to you know, there might be some benefits to break through plateaus with lifts where you start to integrate more of a neuromuscular challenge after a lift and then now the Question A B, and this would be, you know, a hypothesis is that if, when you go back to that lift the next time you train, is it going to be better, or I don’t think it would happen right away necessarily. Maybe it would, because there may be some neuro facilitatory benefits this does in this does is neuro excitatory. So when you spin this thing, it’s not just warming things up and activating, it’s actually getting your nervous system, getting your wiring maybe a little bit more ready to pop, so to speak. So like, we have done some stuff with guys a power lifter out of Austin, Texas, who he do, he’d spin the axle, he do like a hip box, spin the axial and a hip box 10 seconds as fast as he can once because he’s good at it, drops it and then goes right into the bar. Okay, and he said it made him feel more connected with his lift. I mean, this is one of those things where, you know, he’s a more experienced lifter than I am and so the it’s a subjective feeling. But the bottom line is, he really he feels more connected, there’s a better chance he’s gonna perform better. So. So yeah, I would say play around with that, like from and see what you think, you know, you could hypothesize as spinning and axial for 10 to 15 seconds and maybe someones bat speed, arm speed, clubhead speed would be higher. Yeah, but we don’t migration training can do that. Yeah,
Brett Scott 56:24
we also we probably don’t what is like the cut off there of like, when do we come into now we’re gonna start to see fatigue on those lifts that are super setted? They’re 118 seconds. Yeah. 30 seconds? I don’t know.
56:36
That’s, that’s no. And that’s like, and so like, to your point like that, like, that’s where people are like, Well, how long? How many reps should I do for warmup before I go pitch, and I’m like, Well, the last thing I want is for someone to noodle, their arm and then walk out there with their knuckles dragging on the ground, because they use the Axio for 10 minutes before they throw. In fact, even our RX we have an axial eight throwers warm up. That is eight different axial moves. But only four of them actually involve rotating the Axio some of them are actually doing some different types of things. Because my concern would be to noodle somebody before they perform, you know, and everyone’s different. And so I would say like, what, what’s what works best for you with, you know, prior to lifting versus someone else? You know, I mean, I think it’s, it’s really up to the athlete to kind of figure out what they like and go with it, you know?
Brett Scott 57:26
Yep, for sure, man. Cool. Anything else you got for us today?
57:32
Oh, man, I see. I appreciate the conversation. It’s fun, fun talking to PTS, who also have the art of strength training in their, in their toolbox, because I think that’s a, you know, like, for me, it’s fun, because, you know, Pts typically understand the concept of why this is a good idea, but it’s strength coaches who have, who actually liked the fact that it’s challenging and that it needs to be coached, and that it benefits from coaching. And so I think, to your credit in your facilities is that, you know, like, Pts typically don’t like to coach, unfortunately. And, and, and I think that’s, that’s unfortunate. And, and the way practices are nowadays, unfortunately, I don’t practice in that environment more, but it’s some of these assembly line kind of conveyor belt formats. It even if a PT wants to coach quite often they can’t so. So it’s a it’s more fun for me to to get this in the hands of people who want to coach and who want to educate, because that’s why it continues to spread and become more popular. And that’s why we have some of the best athletes in the world, isn’t it now. So, like I said, it’s not just a compliment to the product, it’s a compliment to everybody who’s contributed to, to making it better and helping with curriculum development. And, and I’m sure we’ll follow up with some conversations by welcome. You know, like, I love these dialogues and conversations and stuff, because it just makes it better energizes me as a as a clinician and as a trainer, so I appreciate it.
Brett Scott 58:59
Yeah, no problem. Where can people find you Ted, if they want to learn more about the Axio? Or where can they learn more about where can they find the Axio
59:08
Axio training.com or Axio training on Instagram, Tiktok, Facebook, Twitter, extra training.com and Axio training, pay X IO.
Brett Scott 59:22
Cool. Well, that is it for today, everybody. Thank you for tuning in. And next time we get up Michael Mullen from the postural Restoration Institute to talk about breathing and some postural stuff, performance and adaptations that we see with athletes there. So that’ll be another good one for us. But, Ted, thank you so much for today. It was a great conversation. Learned a lot and just just a good chat to see how much the simple little tool can do for so many people out there. So thank you.
59:58
It was my pleasure. Thanks for having me. No problem. up
